|
Post by Carl Gundel on Apr 23, 2020 15:31:52 GMT -5
I think that it's not that you can't do with simplicity something in other languages. You can, languages are very evolved today and can do anything.
With one minor exception, I agree with everything you said (as I often happily find to be the case). However, regardless of how evolved a language may be, and that it CAN achieve simple things if need be, the learning curve necessary to know what you DON'T need is massive. I know absolutely nothing about C except some videos I saw of how NOT to use it, and it seems there are efficient programmers who know how to optimize code with C, and then there are line-stuffing, paycheck hounds who can do the exact the same thing but with a ridiculous amount of code in order to get paid more. And while that may be true of ANY language, again, I'm not interested in climbing that learning curve to become a programmer. I just want to solve my problem and move on.
:@)
C is not a bad language, but it was designed for low level programming and in particular for implementing the Unix operating system. At that sort of thing it excels and is a good choice. C++ on the other hand is an object oriented version of C which was implemented by a person who does not understand objects. Is it good for something? Probably. But if I must use an object oriented version of C it will be Objective-C.
|
|
|
Post by Chris Iverson on Apr 23, 2020 15:33:25 GMT -5
My focus is strictly a practical one; I need to write GUI programs that do not exist. BUT, I do NOT wish to BE a programmer! And that is the EXACT reason BASIC was invented in the first place! This is a perspective more fascinating to me than it should be. It makes perfect sense, but it's honestly something I hadn't considered before. Blindness on my part, I suppose; contrary to you, I live and breathe computers. I don't find BASIC easier or harder than any other programming language, but that's because I've made myself into a programmer over the past ~15 years of my life. Understanding how computers worked was always fascinating to me, even as a kid, and picking up programming was just part of that. The attitude you have towards it is very interesting to me, and it's sadly not one I'm seeing too often anymore. I think many, many more people could realize how surprisingly simple it can be to make a computer do what you want it to, to do what it's meant to do, if they had the same attitude as you. Computers are there to do work for us, and many people would benefit from learning how to get them to do that work. But people don't. Even leaving out a creative standpoint, and going into pure practicality, they don't bother. They spend hours doing everyday the very things that computers were meant to do! And the funny thing is, there ARE more people out there like this than even THEY realize. I've seen business people insist that they're not programmers, and don't know what any scripting is, but then I've seen those same people turn around and write Excel formulas and macros to do absolute crazy wizard stuff more complicated than many of the programs I've done in ANY "professional" programming language. I think that difference in attitude also reveals another reason for BASIC's dropoff: the fact that it's intended for a different audience. For the most part, I don't think it's active disdain(like Djikstra's was), but just people being focused elsewhere, and BASIC not being significant to them. When programmers make tools for themselves or other programmers, they tend to write it to be used by a programmer, not someone outside of the field. I'm not even sure it's a conscious decision; they just write what they're used to, following the patterns familiar to them. This also means that the tools that come out of that process also have the same biases coded into them. And this ties into the decisions made for the Raspberry Pi, too: they created the tools based on the tools they were already familiar with. All of the early investors and experimenters with Pi were programmers. That's why it was able to grab such an early community around Python; that community was already there, and the Raspberry Pi tapped into it. And that also applies to why Fuze sadly sputtered out: it might've been very good for introducing fresh, new people to the hardware, but programmers who were already programmers, and programmers who were already part of the Pi community, already had what they wanted, and what was familiar to them. To them, there was no point in learning a whole separate thing and building up more stuff on that when they already had a compatible device they knew how to interact with. It just wasn't significant to them, which meant Fuze just didn't get the same audience the Pi did. Heck, that post has helped me realize that I have the same bias, myself. Many of the API wrappers I've written, I've done to make them as close to the originals as possible, to streamline the work that needs to be done, and keep options available. However, that also means I've not been making it as simple as I might've been able to, if I'd prioritized differently.
|
|
|
Post by Carl Gundel on Apr 23, 2020 15:42:01 GMT -5
As for no other language taking the place of BASIC or wanting to, that was my original question. Python HAS taken the place of BASIC whether it "wanted" to or not. My question was simply, "Why?" It didn't need to. BASIC was just fine, but the world decided it needed a far more complex "easiest" language. It's like someone asked, "What's the SECOND easiest language after Pascal to teach kids?" "WHAT?!!! Why not just teach them BASIC?" "BASIC?! I need something more than Logo and turtle graphics!" "Right! BASIC." I get emails every single day from students asking me for a discount link for Liberty BASIC. They almost never buy anything from me for some reason (they're poor?), but it excites me to read how they are learning BASIC in the classroom. Python is not universally used in place of BASIC. There are still plenty of people teaching BASIC.
|
|
|
Post by sarossell on Apr 23, 2020 15:52:11 GMT -5
"All of the early investors and experimenters with Pi were programmers. That's why it was able to grab such an early community around Python; that community was already there, and the Raspberry Pi tapped into it."
I had not considered this point. Very insightful.
|
|
|
Post by sarossell on Apr 23, 2020 15:56:01 GMT -5
I get emails every single day from students asking me for a discount link for Liberty BASIC. They almost never buy anything from me for some reason (they're poor?), but it excites me to read how they are learning BASIC in the classroom. Python is not universally used in place of BASIC. There are still plenty of people teaching BASIC. Cheapskates! What? Just BASIC isn't enough for them?! What more do you have to do, Dude?!
You are correct of course. I have seen a number of introductory programming classes using BASIC. But where I've noticed a lack of BASIC is in the Raspberry Pi arena. And Chris may have just hit that nail on the head with his last message. Very intriguing.
|
|
|
Post by Carl Gundel on Apr 23, 2020 16:11:20 GMT -5
I get emails every single day from students asking me for a discount link for Liberty BASIC. They almost never buy anything from me for some reason (they're poor?), but it excites me to read how they are learning BASIC in the classroom. Python is not universally used in place of BASIC. There are still plenty of people teaching BASIC. Cheapskates! What? Just BASIC isn't enough for them?! What more do you have to do, Dude?!
You are correct of course. I have seen a number of introductory programming classes using BASIC. But where I've noticed a lack of BASIC is in the Raspberry Pi arena. And Chris may have just hit that nail on the head with his last message. Very intriguing.
I never really made the Python connection with their use of Pi. Perhaps a more honest name would be Python Pie. I think that Chris' point about the Raspberry Pi being create by programmers who already prefer Python also extends to Linux as the host OS. For beginners I think this is mistake. The platform should provide for the essentials without being dense and complicated. Linux fails in this regard.
|
|
|
Post by svajoklis on Apr 23, 2020 16:39:37 GMT -5
It really depends then on how we define "taking place". I don't think anything has taken place of BASIC in terms of the old-school "pick it up and do stuff" philosophy. BASIC still seems a kind of an entryway for non-programmers to start doing things. At the same time it does get clunky with its syntax, even more than other options, and other things have taken over the role of being "the first" for some programmers and something that really anyone could pick up. What I was trying to say is that BASIC has its way about it and things seem to have moved on. Not trying to be offensive here, sorry if it came out that way Thanks again for your replies. Even though I thought I was starting to "get it", it didn't come and I don't feel like it will. I'm happy to see you all are passionate about what you love and Liberty BASIC does seem like a passion project. Best of luck.
|
|
|
Post by sarossell on Apr 23, 2020 16:40:05 GMT -5
I think that Chris' point about the Raspberry Pi being create by programmers who already prefer Python also extends to Linux as the host OS. For beginners I think this is mistake. The platform should provide for the essentials without being dense and complicated. Linux fails in this regard. I agree entirely.
I also just received an email from an acquaintance with a large RasPi group in London (he's a night owl). The way he recalls the committee discussion going in the early days, BASIC and Ruby were considered, but there was no existing version of BASIC for the ARM architecture with what they considered had "sufficient support and functionality". The vote then came down to Ruby vs Python and Ruby lost by a narrow margin for what he suspects was prejudice against the Japanese versus a natural affinity for the more Euro-centric Python origin. It was also prominently noted that in 1999, Van Rossum submitted a funding proposal to DARPA called "Computer Programming for Everybody" outlining the benefits of Python. And as the story goes, if it was good enough for DARPA... It probably also didn't hurt that Python had a good five years head start on Ruby in "all the right places".
:@)
|
|
|
Post by sarossell on Apr 23, 2020 16:42:00 GMT -5
Not trying to be offensive here, sorry if it came out that way Not at all. No worries.
|
|
|
Post by sarossell on Apr 23, 2020 16:42:50 GMT -5
So, any thoughts on Pascal? Particularly Free Pascal?
|
|
|
Post by Carl Gundel on Apr 23, 2020 17:12:17 GMT -5
So, any thoughts on Pascal? Particularly Free Pascal? If you have a structured BASIC, why do you need Pascal? Unless of course that Pascal has some really cool unique features that you need.
|
|
|
Post by sarossell on Apr 23, 2020 17:20:41 GMT -5
So, any thoughts on Pascal? Particularly Free Pascal? If you have a structured BASIC, why do you need Pascal? Unless of course that Pascal has some really cool unique features that you need. Oh, sorry. I should have stated why I was asking. I've been having this discussion in various directions and on different forums. It was suggested that Free Pascal would be a valid RasPi BASIC-like option. From what I've seen, I disagree. But I was curious what folks might think here?
|
|
|
Post by sarossell on Apr 23, 2020 17:22:15 GMT -5
...in case I somehow missed something.
|
|
|
Post by Carl Gundel on Apr 23, 2020 21:40:58 GMT -5
If you have a structured BASIC, why do you need Pascal? Unless of course that Pascal has some really cool unique features that you need. Oh, sorry. I should have stated why I was asking. I've been having this discussion in various directions and on different forums. It was suggested that Free Pascal would be a valid RasPi BASIC-like option. From what I've seen, I disagree. But I was curious what folks might think here? Can't really say, except that I personally lost interest in Pascal back in the 1980s. I get the impression that BASIC is much more popular than Pascal. Liberty BASIC for the Raspberry Pi. Am I allowed to say that?
|
|
|
Post by donnybowers on Apr 23, 2020 22:06:13 GMT -5
I love BASIC, though I'm sure I wouldn't like it as much as I do if the only BASIC available to me was the old line numbered BASIC with no GUI controls like LISTBOX AND TEXTEDITOR. When I was still programming in GWBASIC back in the early 90's it was a real pain in the Adams-apple trying to create these functions, and I still use those two controls a lot in my programming.
The reason I prefer BASIC to other languages is because it's where I started; and like sorssell, I don't really want to be a programmer except for the problems and solutions that I want to solve, mostly for my own personal purposes. I would often love to have some language power that I don't have with Liberty BASIC; but usually I can find a way to work around those issues. I'm pretty sure I could learn any language I wanted to learn if I applied myself to it and spent the time. But that would take time away from other things I love to do and people I love to spend time with, a sacrifice that I'm not willing to make at this point in my life.
I could complain, and sometimes I do mutter to myself, that my life would be better if only Liberty BASIC had this or that capability that I would like to implement, but what would be the point? I'm not the center of the universe, and as I said; I can usually find some kind of workaround to do the things I want or need to be able to do. So, I fully understand the need for more powerful programming languages, and if I was younger and had more time to spend on these things I would probably pursue something like C++ or whatever (something with more power).
I've found PHP and HTML fairly easy to learn, but I don't spend the time with PHP that I'd like to because of those other priorities in my life that I mentioned above. I would have got RunBASIC in a skinny minute if it weren't for a few things that I would need for it to serve my purposes. In fact I would probably use it more than I do Liberty BASIC, because a lot of what I want to do these days involves publishing on the internet, and RunBASIC would be perfect for me since I'm so familiar with Liberty BASIC, and RunBASIC would be so easy for me to get used to. And for the things I don't want to publish on the internet, most of that could easily be done with RunBASIC with the server on my PC.
I guess my point is that for some people, like myself, BASIC is probably the only way I would be able to create the programs I've created and the solutions I look for in computing. I find most "one size fits all" programs to be clunky and have too many features that I'll never use for what I want to do, and this is the only reason I want to create my own programs for certain tasks. I don't want to have to take ten steps to get something done if I can make a program where I can do the same thing in one or two steps. I'm not a gamer and I'm mostly only interested in graphics when I want to provide some visual data.
I want to do what I want to do, and I don't want to have to go to college and study a bunch of boring stuff just so I can do these things. Especially since I don't have to. There's Liberty BASIC, and it just works for me, at least for most of the things I want to do with my programming. At age 62 I've come to realize that I would have to live at least ten thousand years in order to learn and do all the things I would like to learn and do. I probably won't have that much time, so I need to prioritize. It isn't easy, but my hands are tied. If I was younger and knew what I know now I would probably have made a career out of computer programming and I would have started much younger. I was one of those "old school" guys who didn't even understand why anyone would want or need a computer until I was around 30 years old and began to see what they could be used for.
I'm a Libertarian, so I personally think we should all pursue whatever we want to pursue, and in this case whatever programming language we want to program in. I just prefer BASIC, and especially Liberty BASIC. It's easy, and I like easy. I'm not sure that's a good argument for or against whatever it is we're discussing here, but it's the truth. I'm not afraid of work. I can lay down right next to it and go to sleep.
I really liked this thread. Some interesting reading. Some of it was over my head to some degree, but it was very thought provoking. I pretty much liked what everyone had to say so far, and appreciated the different places that different members are at in their lives and relation to BASIC and computer programming in general. So I just though I'd take my turn at "dumping" on the subject of the various computer languages and flavors available in the "semi-free market" (real capitalism would be nice for a change IMHO, but I'm way off topic now).
|
|