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Post by meerkat on Mar 3, 2020 18:47:26 GMT -5
OOPS! Sorry about that. I think I set it up for LB so you should see a LB forum when you use the [Demo] link. This link has some docs. It should show the user/pass for both the administration and the user. kneware.com/forum/index.htmAny problems, let me know.. Been years ago - I mean like 10+, so hope for the best..
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Post by Chris Iverson on Mar 3, 2020 19:25:28 GMT -5
Rename the pro version of LB to Gundel Ball Z Heh, never thought I'd see a Dragon Ball Z joke here. Anyway, while unifying the names of the three products(LB, JB, and RB) could be useful for brand recognition, I do think the history of the name of LB(dating back to the year I was born!) is not something that should be easily discarded. Also, Python users not having to worry about versions? HAH! There's still tons of people that are never gonna let go of Python 2.7. Not to mention the versions of Python for different platforms, like CPython(the reference implementation, and what most people mean when referring to "Python"), Jython(Python on the Java VM), Cython(although that's more of a subset of Python used for making very fast Python modules), PyPy, MicroPython/CircuitPython for microcontrollers, IronPython(python on the .NET Runtime), as well as various compilers that compile python into various other languages for speed or interactivity(Pyjs for Javascript, Cython compiles to machine code through C/C++, Numba compiles Python to LLVM bytecode, Pythran for another Python-to-C++ compiler, Grumpy for compiling Python to the Go language, and the list goes on.)
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Post by Carl Gundel on Mar 3, 2020 19:32:14 GMT -5
This is a very valid point. A lot of people have heard of Liberty BASIC. Brand recognition is hard to come by.
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Post by sarossell on Mar 3, 2020 20:11:36 GMT -5
This is a very valid point. A lot of people have heard of Liberty BASIC. Brand recognition is hard to come by. Sakes! I was aware of the 2 vs 3 version conflict, but all of that other stuff is a bit of a surprise. I stand corrected.
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Post by sarossell on Mar 3, 2020 20:22:46 GMT -5
This is a very valid point. A lot of people have heard of Liberty BASIC. Brand recognition is hard to come by. Blockbuster, PanAm, General Motors, Eastern Airlines, Kodak, Atari, RCA, Commodore, Nokia, Compaq, Woolworth's, Sears, JC Penney...All HUGE brands that failed to innovate or adapt and took their brand recognition to their graves.
It's a tough call. I don't envy the choices you may have to make. My grandparents owned a LaSalle - rated THE best car on the market right up until it didn't exist. I loved my Oldsmobile - rated safest domestic U.S. vehicle right up until the line was canceled. Primary reason? The word "Old" was in the name. I enjoyed my Timex/Sinclair 2068. Okay, that didn't have a chance in hell to begin with. {:@(
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Post by sarossell on Mar 3, 2020 20:33:26 GMT -5
As far as I can determine, the only genuine and similar product competition for Liberty BASIC is PurBASIC and it's web-enabled sister SpiderBASIC. They're in the same name conflict boat, but they have attempted to theme there products somewhat similarly in order to maintain some congruity with the brand. Not very well though. Granted the PureBASIC syntax is close to BASIC, but in many ways is a little too uncomfortably close to C for my taste. But they make up for it other ways. Regardless, in light of that, their name choice is even more tragic; it's anything but "pure" BASIC. The Spider (web) thing I get...cute, but meh. Bottom line, it's just not as good as Liberty BASIC. So, final analysis may be to do nothing, since your only real competition is more screwed up than we could imagine on this side of the pond (It's a French product).
Nothing else out there compares in capability, support, history and versatility while still actually being BASIC. I don't consider things like Xojo and Gambas as competition. They're not BASIC! And BBC BASIC? Sure, some well-known individual has ported it to just about anything that plugs in, but there's no active development. It's like a shiny new book on Latin. Yawn.
:@)
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Post by pandawdy on Mar 3, 2020 20:58:12 GMT -5
Rename the pro version of LB to Gundel Ball Z That's better than Jolt BASIC? BASIC needs to be in the name, I think. If it isn't it will be nearly impossible to register a domain for it. I was just kidding
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Post by metro on Mar 3, 2020 21:45:18 GMT -5
That's better than Jolt BASIC? BASIC needs to be in the name, I think. If it isn't it will be nearly impossible to register a domain for it. I was just kidding Yes, Jolt BASIC is a bit of a shocker. Whilst Python currently has a strangle hold on Pi tinkering. I do not find it particularly easy to navigate the plethora of IDE's and their idiosyncrasies. (made worse because the linux world offers up a multitude of options.)
If we had LB5 and RB2.0(ARM) so we could setup our home IOT and access our Home Pi Server, I don't think that would go un-noticed regardless of the name.
The ease of use of BASIC should find support with newbies and us oldies wanting to play in the IOT world .
As they say......https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Build_a_better_mousetrap,_and_the_world_will_beat_a_path_to_your_door just another 2cents worth
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Post by Chris Iverson on Mar 3, 2020 23:35:03 GMT -5
This is a very valid point. A lot of people have heard of Liberty BASIC. Brand recognition is hard to come by. Sakes! I was aware of the 2 vs 3 version conflict, but all of that other stuff is a bit of a surprise. I stand corrected. To be fair to Python, most of those things I listed are highly compatible, if not completely compatible. There's a reason CPython is referred to as the "reference" implementation; anyone can make a Python compiler/interpreter, but for it to be considered proper Python, code must execute the same way in the custom implementation as it does in CPython. Syntax differences you generally only get by crossing Python versions, not implementations. And really, the biggest draw to Python now is modules. They make it very easy to obtain and use modules to get generally any functionality, and they also make it really easy to publish your own modules for others to use if you find something that's not covered yet. Want to open Excel spreadsheets in python? pip install openpyxl, followed by "import openpyxl" in your script. Done, now you can work with Excel files as easily as regular files. Want to work with network communications? import sockets. Want to work with encryption or certificates? import crypto. This makes the Python ecosystem very easy to get in to, since there's a very good chance that, if there's anything you want to do in Python, someone's already written code to do so, and you can grab it yourself very easily. It also makes the ecosystem self-sustaining, since those people who learn Python likely then go on to contribute their own modules to the system. The vast, rich array of modules to cover almost any need is also why Node.js for Javascript became so popular. Heck, I myself used node a couple months ago to make a web interface for controlling a garage door remote attached to a Pi I have. I then made an Android app for my phone to work with that web interface so I can open my garage door when I'm up the street. I did it mostly as a joke, and it's actually been really useful, because I can open my garage door from far enough away that I don't have to stop in the middle of my rather steep driveway when it's icy to wait for the door to open, and then be unable to get the car going because of the ice. I would've used RB for it, but for two problems: 1) I don't think RB is available for the Pi, and 2) I wouldn't be able to use the authentication method I use for the app, so that no one else in the world can control my garage door, even if the web interface is public. I chose to use the Time-based One Time Password algorithm, which would require me to implement HMAC and SHA-1 in native code in RB, which I am not good enough at programming(or math) to do. I chose this because, by using TOTP, even if the "password" somehow leaks or gets intercepted, it's only good for 30 seconds, as the algorithm generates a new 40-character password every 30 seconds. I could come up with my own simpler scheme, but I like using standardized, proven solutions, and TOTP is what's used in every MFA code generator out there. All that said, though, this is an LB programming forum, so there's no reason to be fair to Python or JS.
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Post by sarossell on Mar 4, 2020 4:37:31 GMT -5
All that said, though, this is an LB programming forum, so there's no reason to be fair to Python or JS. Granted, if LB and/or Run are to compete with Python, we're behind the eight ball a bit and have a lot of catching up to do, but I'm seeing a trend here in my little slice of hell in Yuma that is encouraging. My grand-daughter joined a local maker group. It's only ten kids and a couple of a high school teachers, but they have a really impressive collection of tools. A nice caveat of life here is that the local college is connected to the county libraries, so they share resources. Also, a non-college student can request loaned library resources from around the world through the university system. Ive got a math book coming from Germany I've been wanting to look at for years.
Anyway, they were using Python to control servos and switches for a group model train set project they have in mind and she was getting frustrated with Python. "Why do I have to do that?, "What colon?, Where?" "If the For loop doesn't have a Next at the end, how do you know when it's done? Indentation? That's stupid!" So when she showed them LB, they all just lit up! Even the teachers! I sat back and heard more than a dozen times, "So, you don't need parenthesis there?", "What about the colon at the end?", "How does it do that?" or "Why don't you have to do this...?" or "That's cool." The general consensus was that Python is the devil you know, but LB looked like the angel you'd rather go to the prom with. And I completely agree.
On a different note, it occurred to me last night that while a unified naming convention and theme would have it's advantages, there's no reason that it couldn't be treated like a branding in itself. In other words, leave LB/Just/Run exactly as they are on their own upgrade paths, but rebrand them with the new scheme as something akin to a "stable release" for the new masses. Essentially, LB/Just/Run would be in the "trenches" with the steely-eyed test pilots who get dirty, while the "shiny" version is for the new kids to enjoy without any worries. It's a subtle distinction, and perhaps even a bit of a semantic stretch, but it would FEEL comfy and new and reliable to new customers. AND it would have the benefit of shining a light on the original named apps as the hardy trench soldiers of the application suite taking on the heavy hits on the front line rather than a potentially forgotten old version under a different name. The marketing could be similar to the way Toyota first came out with their luxury Lexus line of vehicles. Everyone knew it was the same company that gave us the pedestrian but reliable Celica, but they didn't care. In fact, people instinctively knew the Lexus would be more reliable because of it.
:@)
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Post by Rod on Mar 4, 2020 8:08:34 GMT -5
I have been playing with my new PI and I have played in the past with Arduino Sketches. I have to say its a long time since I looked at other BASICS but I did get a little close to Free BASIC and BBC BASIC. All these systems highlight to me the edge that Liberty BASIC has. There are no versions, no libraries, no addins, it just starts and you have immediate access to everything. It is real simple syntax even for the complex GUI components. By far the simplest BASIC I have seen.
I tried a few projects with the PI and even with the Arduino, beginners are not "programming", they are installing libraries and addins they barely understand. Then copying code that runs and that they might understand a little of but unless they had been shown how to pick the resources they would never have got started. Most "makers" are following a recipe. Yes folks are learning but because of the shifting sands its really hard to get going on your own. IMHO.
Now the support is tremendous and the community really strong. You will always find how to do something. But that's not really allowing folks to be personally creative.
Liberty BASIC is well known, has been for a while. It would seem silly to lose that so, Liberty BASIC Pro, Liberty BASIC Web, Liberty BASIC and Liberty BASIC Free would do it for me. Run, Just and Liberty does seem like three camps and three times the sales effort.
Cross platform capability will change the world. Finding a way to integrate web activity into the fold would be great, right now it feels too different. so I like the noises meerkat is making.
Fun times ahead!
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Post by sarossell on Mar 4, 2020 9:18:47 GMT -5
Rod, I agree completely. That's why I suggested to this maker group that the kids at least be required to type in all code instead of just cut-n-paste. It's already made a huge difference. They're still using other people's libraries and modules, but I heard at least two of them ask the key question I love to hear, "Who wrote this? Why can't I program this myself?"
As for the name stuff, I agree there as well. unifying under the Liberty name for all three seems suggestive of a more cohesive suite of applications. And if "Liberty" is the key word to muster the troops around, all the better - market on that theme; "Feeling trapped by...? Embrace Liberty." "Enjoy the Liberty of being able to...", etc.
Then again...?
Innovation BASIC? Vanguard BASIC? Phoenix BASIC? Advanced BASIC? Modern BASIC? Brand New BASIC? BASIC Now? BASIC 2020? 20/20 BASIC?
Hoy, I need another hobby.
:@)
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Post by Rod on Mar 4, 2020 10:13:26 GMT -5
Your never going to convince Carl to drop the word BASIC. But Liberty, Liberty Web, Liberty Free Liberty Pro are like sugar coated pills and still do it for me. We probably all call Liberty BASIC V4.5.1, Liberty in unguarded moments.
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Post by Carl Gundel on Mar 4, 2020 10:17:25 GMT -5
Then again...? Innovation BASIC? Vanguard BASIC? Phoenix BASIC? Advanced BASIC? Modern BASIC? Brand New BASIC? BASIC Now? BASIC 2020? 20/20 BASIC? Hoy, I need another hobby. :@) Please don't get another hobby. I have been considering other names. I do own several domains. For example I am very eager to corral Liberty BASIC and Run BASIC under one roof while retaining their names. basicforge.com is my concept for a subscription based service where you will always have access to the latest stuff in a forum like this, but exclusive. Two other domains that I own are zenbasic.com and advantagebasic.com. I've been meaning to do something with these for a long time, but alas. This is a chicken and egg problem. The reopening of the LBU is a very conscious move to attract more people. It was popular before I was forced to close it down.
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Post by sarossell on Mar 4, 2020 10:21:53 GMT -5
Your never going to convince Carl to drop the word BASIC. But Liberty, Liberty Web, Liberty Free Liberty Pro are like sugar coated pills and still do it for me. We probably all call Liberty BASIC V4.5.1, Liberty in unguarded moments. Whoops, we took different paths on this one. I rather insist not only on keeping the word "BASIC", but capitalizing it for the acronym it is. I see the loss of "BASIC" as a sure sign the product is no longer the BASIC language. Visual Basic - NOT BASIC. Gambas, Xojo...NOT BASIC. And, for me, I almost always refer to Liberty BASIC as "Liberty BASIC" or "LB", never just "Liberty" and never, EVER "Liberty Basic". But that's just me. I don't judge.
:@)
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