jordi
Full Member
A simple solution is the smarter one.
Posts: 106
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Post by jordi on Apr 24, 2020 0:22:50 GMT -5
I don't think Basic is for non programmers. I would say Basic is for very high level programming. That implies slower execution sometimes, less access to customize the behavior of the program, and less power in general. It also implies easier, faster to code, more fun and less effort in translating from your thoughts to computer and a smaller set of instructions to learn.
We could ask "what is a programmer?" And answer in a superficial way: "someone who programs". Then we all here are programmers.
And if you get paid for that, and you do it often or as part of your paid job, then you are a pro. Just as in any other profession.
You are simply not a software engineer or a system engineer. You simply don't use all languages out there just as a plumber doesn't use all existing tools.
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Post by sarossell on Apr 24, 2020 0:43:54 GMT -5
Liberty BASIC for the Raspberry Pi. Am I allowed to say that? Heartily encouraged, Sir! Please please.
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Post by sarossell on Apr 24, 2020 0:52:31 GMT -5
I'm not the center of the universe... Well, I *AM* the center of the universe, but only because my big butt forms a gravity well.
When it comes to programming though, it sounds like we're of the same ilk.
:@)
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Post by sarossell on Apr 24, 2020 0:57:01 GMT -5
And if you get paid for that, and you do it often or as part of your paid job, then you are a pro. Just as in any other profession. Well heck, I *HAVE* been paid for my LB work to solve some problems, so I guess I'm a pro. Holy crap! I want my patch! Or badge! Or whatever you get for doin' a thing! 'Cuz I did a thing, Man! Sweet! :@)
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Post by sarossell on Apr 24, 2020 1:00:50 GMT -5
Well, this stinkin' virus lockdown has given me all the time in the world to do whatever the heck I want and then I ended up getting a tech writing gig for Xojo of all things. I know just enough about Xojo to know I don't wanna, but at least all I have to do is write ABOUT it and get paid.
I would much rather write about LB v.5. {wink wink}. I'm particularly curious to see how that .im business is going to work out.
:@)
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Post by pandawdy on Apr 24, 2020 9:22:33 GMT -5
Other languages are as hard as you want them to be. At some points when using Liberty BASIC I want to use those parts only to find them missing. It would be completely unreasonable to force people either to limit themselves to using a small set of functions. And it would be unreasonable to ask each and every programmer to define their own "Standard Library" with required functions. If hundreds of people can create, test, use, retest, fix a rock-solid standard library, I would take that over the sense of pride of implementing basic things myself any day. Like I heard someone once say: you have to decide whether you are setting off to write a game or you are setting of to write a game engine. Those two things are completely separate and apply to other programming endeavors as well. If my goal was to make a network component I wouldn't just go ahead and reimplement whole TCP stack just to say that people who got it pre-made are lazy and uncreative. You can use BASIC to do commercial applications if you really want to, but BASIC is really best suited to individuals. If you are free to decide for yourself what sort of compromises you are willing to make, then a small language with a small library can be perfect for you. I have also worked on large professional projects using Java and Smalltalk. These programming systems have very complete and mature libraries that do all the things that professionals require today. The problem is that they also do not fit for the beginner or casual programmer because they require a large investment in learning before you are ready to start writing code, and then you have to study the library in order to figure out how to do things. And then, if you step away for weeks or months to work on something else you might come back to realize that you forgot a lot of what you knew and need to refamiliarize yourself. AND THEN the tools vendor obsoletes and deprecates the library functions and you have to relearn and change your code. So... BASIC is for beginners, and hobbyists, and people who need a programming language but they are not paid programmers and can't afford to spend all their time learning new languages and keeping up with the technology. That's one way to look at it anyways. I dunno.. the company I work for has used BASIC very successfully.
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Post by Carl Gundel on Apr 24, 2020 9:32:40 GMT -5
You can use BASIC to do commercial applications if you really want to, but BASIC is really best suited to individuals. If you are free to decide for yourself what sort of compromises you are willing to make, then a small language with a small library can be perfect for you. I have also worked on large professional projects using Java and Smalltalk. These programming systems have very complete and mature libraries that do all the things that professionals require today. The problem is that they also do not fit for the beginner or casual programmer because they require a large investment in learning before you are ready to start writing code, and then you have to study the library in order to figure out how to do things. And then, if you step away for weeks or months to work on something else you might come back to realize that you forgot a lot of what you knew and need to refamiliarize yourself. AND THEN the tools vendor obsoletes and deprecates the library functions and you have to relearn and change your code. So... BASIC is for beginners, and hobbyists, and people who need a programming language but they are not paid programmers and can't afford to spend all their time learning new languages and keeping up with the technology. That's one way to look at it anyways. I dunno.. the company I work for has used BASIC very successfully. You can use almost any programming language for professional work. When I worked in a circuitboard factory we wrote a lot of really good software in BASIC including a special CNC programming editor and machine simulator, a shop floor job tracking and expediting system, and a program for generating test fixtures for circuitboard electrical testing. The shop floor system was written by an electronics engineer with no programming training. And this is exactly what I meant when I wrote above "they are not paid programmers and can't afford to spend all their time learning new languages", etc. BASIC gives the non-programmer a way to be a programmer. It is the gateway drug of programming.
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Post by Carl Gundel on Apr 24, 2020 9:48:45 GMT -5
I dunno.. the company I work for has used BASIC very successfully. You can use almost any programming language for professional work. When I worked in a circuitboard factory we wrote a lot of really good software in BASIC including a special CNC programming editor and machine simulator, a shop floor job tracking and expediting system, and a program for generating test fixtures for circuitboard electrical testing. The shop floor system was written by an electronics engineer with no programming training. And this is exactly what I meant when I wrote above "they are not paid programmers and can't afford to spend all their time learning new languages", etc. BASIC gives the non-programmer a way to be a programmer. It is the gateway drug of programming. Let me just emphasize what I'm saying. We solved real manufacturing problems using BASIC on computers that had less than 64K of RAM. The 80/20 rule dominates. With some ingenuity you can solve the most important problems with very little.
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Post by sarossell on Apr 24, 2020 10:52:01 GMT -5
BASIC gives the non-programmer a way to be a programmer. It is the gateway drug of programming. With some ingenuity you can solve the most important problems with very little. I totally agree, and have done so...recently. I *LOVE* the fact that I can just conceptualize an solution in BASIC and then literally transcribe my thoughts into code. You can't do that with other languages.
"There are 5,230 lines of data to go through. Okay, I'm gonna need a loop. Easy, that's a For..Next loop! Then I need to find the text on each line...No problem, that's..."
As opposed to...
"...need a loop. Well, first I have to declare this class...and then I've got to define this variable type. Ah crap, I need to include those two libraries...Wait. What the hell was I doing?"
:@)
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Post by Carl Gundel on Apr 24, 2020 11:02:44 GMT -5
BASIC gives the non-programmer a way to be a programmer. It is the gateway drug of programming. With some ingenuity you can solve the most important problems with very little. I totally agree, and have done so...recently. I *LOVE* the fact that I can just conceptualize an solution in BASIC and then literally transcribe my thoughts into code. You can't do that with other languages.
"There are 5,230 lines of data to go through. Okay, I'm gonna need a loop. Easy, that's a For..Next loop! Then I need to find the text on each line...No problem, that's..."
As opposed to...
"...need a loop. Well, first I have to declare this class...and then I've got to define this variable type. Ah crap, I need to include those two libraries...Wait. What the hell was I doing?"
:@)
Dang, how do you use an array again? Oh, I mean a collection? A map? What the....?
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Post by sarossell on Apr 24, 2020 11:55:43 GMT -5
Dang, how do you use an array again? Oh, I mean a collection? A map? What the....? LOL. Exactly.
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Post by tsh73 on Apr 24, 2020 12:50:20 GMT -5
There is a line in Russian translation of Alf en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ALF_(TV_series)(I specially searched - it looks like it was added in Russian translation, no source phrase)Somehow folks go just fine using arrays, or collections, or declaring variables in other languages. There is no golden hammer, and there are many tools. One should not use Philips screwdriver on slot-head screw.
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Post by Carl Gundel on Apr 24, 2020 14:41:39 GMT -5
There is a line in Russian translation of Alf en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ALF_(TV_series)(I specially searched - it looks like it was added in Russian translation, no source phrase)Somehow folks go just fine using arrays, or collections, or declaring variables in other languages. There is no golden hammer, and there are many tools. One should not use Philips screwdriver on slot-head screw. The point I was trying to make is that sometimes there is too much to remember, and some people would rather not try. There's nothing wrong with that. Other people enjoy using big software frameworks and libraries, and that's fine.
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Post by klewlis on Apr 24, 2020 20:02:39 GMT -5
OK, have to chime in here. I started programming in the 1970s. Built my first computer from scavenged parts pulled out of school dumpsters and a few other dumpsters. The only part that I actually had to pay for was a circuit board that I had to solder into an IBM Selectric typewriter so that I could use it as a keyboard for the computer. After soldering the chip into the typewriter connections, I soldered the wires into a parallel port connector for connection to my computer. I have been building my own computers ever since. Not a huge feat by any means, but one that seems to be very rare these days. It is getting harder by the day to research and purchase individual parts. None of that really has any bearing on the BASIC language. But, I thought it might give some insight into a long background in my own personal programming experience. In 8th grade, I joined the schools computer club, sponsored by a teacher that realized computers were a wave of the future that would not disappear. The club raised funds thru various means to rent both a teletype and hours per month on the USC mainframe computer. We wrote programs in a text based language that seems to be a predecessor to BASIC. Some of these games were card games and others were as simple as deciding the flip of a coin. The next year, we raised enough funds to purchase, (at a discounted rate, because we bought it in the schools name) an Altair computer. This computer used a BASIC language, but you had to program it using punch cards, (does anyone here remember punch cards?). After graduating High School, I sought to further my education in the field of artificial intelligence. Unfortunately I met a woman, (also attending college) got married and suddenly had two kids and had to drop out to support my family. I would have preferred to become a professional programmer, but life got in the way. I discovered Liberty BASIC when it was version 1.42 or somewhere in that range. That is the oldest version that is currently on my computer. Carl may need to chime in here to tell me different if he has those records. I have had some health and financial problems along the way and have missed a few minor versions thru it all, but the last version I have record of is version 4.03. When I was in need and able to rejoin this community, we were at version 4.51. Rather than ask Carl to send me my password again, (this is not the first time I had to leave the community and then return a few years later), I decided to just pay the full price to purchase a new license. The reason I decided this has to do with Liberty BASIC and the ease of programming with the language. I write programs for my own use, and challenge myself with other programs to share with the community. I find BASIC in general, and Liberty Basic specifically to be one of the easiest languages to program the type of problems I need to solve. Even if there is not a readily available solution, I can find a way to program my solution with a little research and perseverance. I will be a Liberty BASIC fan and user for as long as I am able to type on a keyboard. at one point I actually learned to program in C++ but have chosen not to use it for most of my programming needs. I have been able to access the necessary .dll files and work with Liberty BASIC for 95% of my programming needs. LONG LIVE Liberty BASIC.
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Post by sarossell on Apr 24, 2020 21:23:10 GMT -5
(does anyone here remember punch cards?) Love your story, even though the one, huge paragraph was like reading a J. D. Salinger novel. Thanks for sharing, all the same! Loving the passion.
LOL. My very first day of college in 1986, the professor of my Computer Science course asked me to help him roll a punch card reader into the hall to be disposed of since it was no longer being taught in the curriculum. Ha! Dodged that bullet!
:@)
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